ࡱ> uwtm ibjbj .bba  ft]]]$!f]]]]].iii]i]iiiviD0ti4"H4"iiZ4"]]i]]]]]!H]]]t]]]]4"]]]]]]]]] B L: Interview with Ann Pancake, June 1, 2023 Julie Beacraft-Shehan, Ben Trogdon, and Dr. Sylvia Bailey Shurbutt JBS: You have said that the didactic and polemic dont mix readily, and the political can undermine art. Also, as you have spoken about writing Strange As this Weather Has Been, you shared, there are places . . . where I stumbled into exactly the traps Im point out. Can you share your thoughts about mixing politics and art? AP: Thanks for asking that question. Although I didnt know Id eventually write a political novel, I learned a whole lot about the power and the pitfalls of political fiction while writing my dissertation at the University of Washington. During the process, I read many explicitly political novels from the 1920s, 30s, and 40s. Some worked. Some didnt. When they failed, it was often because the writer sacrificed the art of the book to its political message. Ive said before that I believe art is capacious enough to encompass politics, but I dont believe the opposite. So if I have to make a choice when Im writing fiction, Im always going to choose art. There was factual information about mountaintop removal, for example, that I had to leave out of Strange As This Weather Has Been because it would have tilted the book towards the didactic. Instead, I opted to follow my characters where they led, trusting that if the reader felt their experiences deeply enough, I didnt have to state why and how exploitation through resource extraction can be devastating for people and for land. At the same time, I did write the book with an agenda, as some would say. Its not a matter of trying to be objective about an issue. But that agenda has to be organic to the characters experiences and to the plot. JBS: You have often said that you have an intuitive style. What does that phrase means to you and your writing process. AP: I rarely start a piece of writing with a conscious intention. I tend to start when I hear or feel a pressure that is initially usually musical, voice-driven, or imagistic. I think my process is similar to how many poets compose. I spend quite a bit of time just generating passages without using my intellect, without worrying about order, plot, or meaning. I try to stay in touch with my unconscious. Later, I have to go back, reread the passages, and gradually start figuring out where the story is. Its an inefficient way to write! But for me, it gives birth to the best art. JBS: We have so enjoyed reading and exploring your work. You have a writing style that is completely unique, one that often reminds the reader of James Joyce or Virginia Woolf in terms of how you explore the consciousness of a character or how you use the English language to make your readers cognizant of the power of language in literary prose. What writers have been particularly influential in terms of style and literary art, perhaps consciously or unconsciously? AP: Youre exactly right. My style has been much influenced by Modernism, by Joyce and Woolf, yes, and more so by Faulkner, Jean Rhys, Marguerite Duras, a number of Modernist poets. Appalachian writers who use stream of consciousness and other modernist techniques, like Jayne Anne Phillips and James Still, have also fed my style. But one reason Im drawn to Modernism is because I think Appalachian English, with its inventiveness of language and its lyrical beauty, is closer to Modernism than it is to many other literary styles. JBS: Though unique, your writing style is stilleminentlyreadablewithout sacrificing theaestheticbeauty ofstylefor accessibility.Is this a balancethat youconsciously try to cultivate, or does it come naturally with the subjects and characters that you find yourself drawn to?Talk about how your unique style has evolved and your views about the art of writing. AP: I can point to quite a few people who do not believe its very readable! Thank you for saying that it is accessible. My natural inclination, and this was especially true of my early work, like Given Ground, is to prioritize the pieces aesthetics. Partly I did this when I was young because I never expected to have an audience. When I came to write Strange As This Weather Has Been, because I was so committed to illuminating mountaintop removal for a wide audience, I deliberately made the novel more accessible. The six points of view helped with this. For example, Coreys chapters are very straightforward. Bants are the most lyrical (and the ones I most enjoyed writing), and the others are in-between. What I do believe strongly is that if a reader can take in the prose not just as story, but also as music, that prose will leave a stronger deeper impression on the reader. JBS: Youve talked about a storys coming to you often through voice initiallyfor example after working with your sibling Chet on the making of the documentary film Black Diamonds, you heard the voice of a fourteen-year-old child which became the kernel for Strange as this Weather Has Been. Talk about your work as character driven; what is most important in your mind to get right in your writing? How does a voice evolve into a narrative, into a novel? AP: If I can follow the voice that I hear initially, that voice soon reveals itself as a character, and then the character shows me where the story is going. I just have to give over and follow for the early drafts. But what the character tells and shows me is often not neat and orderly, and its also not always coherent, so at a certain point, I have to step back and bring the more conscious part of my brain in to see whats going on and help it along so its ultimately readable. Approaching a different part of your question, Ill add that any writer who is using Appalachian people as characters has an enormous and very serious responsibility to present those characters as complex with fully developed interiors. Were all very familiar with Appalachian stereotypes and their popularity with the general public. The stereotypes do real world harm, and they also make for bad art. JBS: Your journey as an author was very like so many other Appalachian writers weve brought to ϳԹUniversity and to the One Book One West Virginia programa yearning to leave and eventually a yearning to return to the mountains. How has this pattern affected your writing? Were you more prolific away from or within your cultural comfort zone of West Virginia? Can you talk a bit about the importance of this particular cultural landscape and the strange and paradoxical yearning to both leave and return that West Virginians have? AP: I have taught a class at West Virginia University called Love, Grief, and Hope: Appalachian Literature of the Environment. Most of the students are from Appalachia, and almost all the students, 40 years younger than I, also carry this same profound paradox of yearning to leave but also yearning to return or stay. Ive thought a lot about why we West Virginians feel this ambivalence so passionately. I wont go into my various theories here, but I will say that having a psyche thats always negotiating this paradox can make for very good literature. Our simultaneous love and hate creates a powerful friction, and powerful frictions can generate powerful art. I personally had to leave West Virginia in order to gain the perspective to write well about it. I was completely immersed in WV until I was 22, I knew nothing else, and I wasnt able to see what we have here, both the wonders and the darkness. My living outside the region helped my writing evolve, but then at a certain point, I was gone too long. I was losing too much touch, especially with the language, and Id say from 2009 to 2018, my writing suffered. I returned in 2018 to live here permanently. I thought maybe the voices had disappeared forever, that I was kind of being punished for a betrayal. Then in 2020, after two years of being home, the music, the voices, everything came back and it keeps coming. JBS: You grew up in a rural setting, where you and your siblings were able to run free, imagine, play in the woods and learn about the natural world. Those early lessons appear to have been pretty strong. Can you share what it was like growing up in the Eastern Panhandle and Hampshire County, with a bevy of siblings on a farm that had been in the Pancake family for generations? What was that like for you personallychallenging or Wordsworthian? What kind of memories do you now have of those formative years? AP: Id say it was both challenging and Wordsworthian. All six of us siblings felt the isolation of living where we did, and even through that one TV channel, we could see that we were missing out on real America. HA. On the other hand, without growing up in that place, Id never have come to understand the natural world like I do. Id never have read as much as I did as a child. And I doubt if my brothers and sisters and I would have had the space and timewe wouldnt have had as much needto create all the games and roles and make-believe worlds that we did. My two siblings closest my age, Sam and Chet, were stunningly creative and inventive and unusual. We three fought a lot, but we were also always making things up. I now realize how we were developing our art and ingenuity without adult supervision or classes or structure. That self-reliance and resourcefulness has served us well all our lives. JBS: What is your relationship with nature today? Do you still find the need to be in the natural world; do you find it a healing environment? Talk about the personal importance of nature, outside of the activism and work youve done to try to protect it. AP: I absolutely have to be in the natural world for my sanity. Absolutely. I live on four beautiful acres in Preston County. Its only four acres, but my peace, my well-being, my stability, and my spiritual practice are dependent on that four acres. I also walk, hike, bike, and kayak in environments beyond our little place in Arthurdale, and those also keep me sane, keep me in touch with whats real and what matters. Through nature, I reach the sacred. JBS: You have said that your upbringing in Appalachia played an important, if not vital part in making you a better writer. With only one television station to be found in the house, you were encouraged to go outdoors and explore the hills and the creeks of your family home and in turn, you found yourself. These memories of yours resonate with many of your fellowAppalachians of a certain age. What are your thoughts about the younger generations missing out on these connections with nature which tend to inspire ones innate or natural creativity. How do you feel about modern life today and the constant reliance on technology? And when it comes to your role as a teacher, what promising traits do you see in your students when it comes to how they interact with others and their social engagement.? AP: I imagine it might not be a surprise that I believe the damage caused by social media, AI, and other forms of information technology far outweighs technologys benefits at this point in our history. Ive read quite a bit on the issues, in excellent books like Max Fishers The Chaos Machine, Nicholas Carrs The Shallows, Shoshana Zubofs The Age of Surveillance Capital, works by Jaron Lanier, and others that lay out unequivocally the harms of social media and artificial intelligence. I stay off social media for my mental health and to keep my creativity alive. I also know that our dependence on technology is not sustainable, so eventually, well have to come back to earth. What shape the earth will be in, we dont know. I see very inspiring and promising traits in my students and other young people of their generation. They have a kind of cultural sobriety that I didnt see in undergraduates 15 years ago, by which I mean, many of them know exactly whats going on and whats coming. They are less easily duped by technologies, disinformation, advertising, and politicians than American older than they who didnt grow up on this stuff. They have a powerful sense of justice; they are sometimes less materialistic than earlier generations; and despite their having come of age in an era when violence and plain meanness have spiked and are even encouraged, they remain deeply compassionate. Of course, this doesnt apply to everyone in their generation, but it does apply to many. I admire them very much. JBS: There seems to be this constant fusion or interweaving of the presenceof God andthe significance of the divine gift of land to humankind, throughout your upbringing. The origination of yourappreciation of nature and what the divine has provided humanity is apparent when you speak about your father. As youve mentioned in the past, your father was a minister and so religion and talk of the divine were likely a common topic, but he was unique in that he was vocal about his disapproval of the rape of the land and regarded it as a direct insult to the divine. Can you take us to a pivotal moment, or perhaps a few with your father that solidified your own instincts and spurred your conscience to expose the degradation of Appalachia through your very own writing? AP: I believe my father found God in the natural world, but didnt really have a way to articulate this or practice it fully because he was also a devout and law-abiding Christian. I recognized that tension in him, like when hed tell me if I stood still, Id feel spirits in the trees. But then hed later turn around and discourage talk of any spirits except those in Christianity. You might recognize some of this in the character Mogey in the novel. However, I felt the spirits in the trees. I didnt feel much of them in church. The first time I understood what strip mining was, I was probably about six and living in Nicholas County, a county with a lot of coal mining, at least back then. We used to go to this beautiful place called Buck Mountain. One day we went, and my dad told me wed never see it again. I asked why, and he said because they were going to strip mine it. Then he explained what that was. Clearly, I never forgot it. And throughout his life, he was steadily critical of all kinds of degradation of the natural world, from clear-cut logging to the chicken factory farms along our river, the South Branch of the Potomac. JBS: You chose as the title of your Appalachian Heritage residence Appalachia and the Natural World. Explain your thoughts about the term natural; how does this idea carry a connotation beyond the environment for you, and why is this a crucial idea to think about particularly in West Virginia, Appalachia, and this fractious country that we live in today? AP: I believe that for us to survive as a species, we have to recover a relationship with the natural world that is very different from the Wests current dominant relationship, which sees the natural world as alien from us, less worthy than us; sees it only for its use and profit value; sees it as an object. What I know about people in West Virginia and other parts of Appalachia is that despite the devastation thats been wrought in parts of our state and despite the deal with the devil so many have had to make with that devastation in order to earn a livingmany of us still have a close and loving relationship with the natural world. We love our places, love the land here, and many people still garden, forage, hunt, and fish. This sort of relationship with nature becomes increasingly scarce elsewhere in the U.S., except in indigenous cultures and communities. So what I want to illuminate and encourage through my title is that we in Appalachia can still touch that relationship, recognize it, celebrate it, and nurture it, and in this way, remind people not as fortunate as we what they may have forgotten. JBS: Artists like Silas House and Marie Manilla became writers through the MFA routethat is, attending a university or institute like the Iowa Writers Workshop to learn the craft of writing. Writers like Ron Rash and Barbara Kingsolver chose a different route, as did you. Talk about how you have wended your way to authorship in terms of the training, craft, and art? AP: Ive always learned to write more through reading and the study of published works than I have through lessons in craft and by workshopping with peers. I think this kind of learning suits better my natural inclination to write intuitively. I drink in literature and theory and criticism, let it settle deep in to me, and then write. Sometimes the MFA route, in my opinion, tilts too heavily towards conscious thinking too early in the writing process. Also in the MFA, some students are not discerning enough about feedback they receive from other students. But every writer learns differently, and no way is inherently better than any other way. JBS: Do you think the training you have had in literature and teaching literature has given you particular advantages in terms of your own style and content? As a creative writing teacher, you are in a unique position to see the positive of both approachesthat is, the MFA and the Ph.D. route. AP: Yes, I think my taking in literature from the perspective of a reader and criticwhich is different from reading to learn craft--has facilitated my holding firmly to my own vision and has contributed to my unique style. My study of literary theory, especially the French feminists, but also Marxist and post-Marxist approaches, has freed me to experiment to my hearts content (that is the French feminists influence) and to write more confidently about issues of social class (the Marxist influence). JBS: There has been renewedpolitical interest in Appalachiaover the past decade, with manyviewingthe region asanexplanatory canvas onto which all of Americas faults can be painted and analyzed.This idea can be seen throughout the many think-pieces written about Donald Trumps particular success in the region, as well as the popularity of J.D. Vances work among both conservatives and well-intentioned liberals.Without mixing the didactic and the polemical,how do you navigate writing aboutandat-times celebratinga regionand peopleoftenregarded contemptuously? AP: Keep it real. Write what I see and feel and know firsthand, not what I see and feel and know through popular portrayals of this place. Revise repeatedly if a character in an early draft is drifting towards stereotype. Revise language repeatedly so that the reader understands we are from a culture and have a language that is deep and rich and valuable. Read other writers from the region who are also doing exactly what I just described. Dont pander to what publishers want or what a lot of readers want or what popular culture wants. Be okay with less commercial success and a smaller readership. JBS: We know that you are a superb teacher, take immense interest in your students, and enjoy working with young writers just setting out on their journey toward authorship. We also know that you are taking a break from teaching in order to concentrate more fully on your own writing. Can you talk about that. AP: Im actually not taking a break from teaching to concentrate on my writing. I resigned this spring from my professor position at WVU when the administration embarked on a radical revision of the university that will irreparably damage the universitys programs in the humanities and arts, along with many other programs. The climate at WVU is not one in which I can any longer write or teach effectively. Also driving me away from teaching is the interference of chatbots, AI, and the always escalating pressure to use technology in teaching, regardless of whether the technology helps students learn or not. Finally, I am not comfortable teaching students who can legally carry concealed weapons in classrooms and other places on campus. This law goes into effect in July 2024. We can thank the NRA and the West Virginia State Legislature. All of these factors led to my resignation. These factors make me very, very sad for our states children and young people. JBS: When it comes to environmental concerns and the humanity of thepeople of Appalachia, central themes found in your writing, what are your thoughts about progress against environmental degradation and mountaintop removal? AP: I am horrified at the way the destruction of the land, water, and air has become normalized, not only in Appalachia, but across the United States and in many other countries. I am horrified at the legal violence, psychological and physical, committed against people who know its not normal and are brave enough to take a stand. I am horrified at the silence of popular media about these subjects. Its not about being radical. Its about having the common sense, the most basic survival instinct, to understand that the destruction of the natural world is homicide and suicide. Im talking about homicide and suicide of human beings. I mean, even from an anthropocentric point of view, its homicide and suicide, in the short-term and certainly in the long-term. Id like to quote West Virginia poet laureate Marc Harshman here. This passage is from his poem What Ive Seen. Along with references to West Virginia non-natural disasters, the poem also names people who have put their lives on the line to end environmental devastation in West Virginia. Three of those people were friends of mine, and their inspiration continues to keep me in the fight. Buffalo Creek, Kayford Mountain, Larry Gibson, Tug River, Judy Bonds, Brookside, South Parkersburg, Blair, Vera Scroggins, Elk River, Maria Gunnoe, more losses than victories in these battles but as long as their memories entangle our own, theres kindling. At this point in our history, I put my faith and my hope in that kindling Marc brilliantly identifies. JBS: You have spoken about your own grief of the loss of tradition in Appalachia; do you have any hope ofAppalachian traditionswithstanding the vicissitudes of time and do you expect the traditional grit and perseverance of Appalachians to persevere and the culture to remain distinctive and unique in America? AP: I think some of the traditions will survive, and I think the culture will remain unique. Both the traditions and the culture will evolve, are evolving, will look a little different, and thats as it should be. But we are a tough subculture already accustomed to hardship within a larger dominant culture that is disintegrating and isnt necessarily accustomed to hardship. And were a culture with knowledge and values that are going to become more critical for survival. Theres a great line by anti-MTR activist Maria Gunnoe in Shannon Bells amazing collection of interviews Our Roots Run Deep As Ironweed. Maria talks about how rural West Virginians, especially in southern WV, are called backwards hillbillies, but in the long run, those who call them that will have to turn to the backwards hillbillies to learn how to survive. Maria says theyll show up and say, for example, Now how was it you growed your garden? A whole lot of young people not from Appalachia, and older people too, already understand this and are eager to learn. The government in WV isnt going to help us, but they never have. Its just a matter of whether its bad or worse, their lack of leadership, and now its worse. Change towards healthier and more sustainable practices has to come from the people, from grassroots. And those movements are very much emerging right now, in the cracks everywhere, while Charleston continues to tear most West Virginians down. I have faith in what comes from the regular people. In the long run, our culture will survive better than lots will. JBS: Finally, most writers dont like to talk about what is on the horizon for the next projectthe next short story or novel percolating in their consciousness. Could you share what particularly interests you right now that is driving your creative instincts? AP: I have a number of projects under way right now, but the most important one is a novel set, of course, in West Virginia. It, like Strange, explores environmental loss and in particular the connection between environmental loss and mental illness. But this book is different from Strange As This Weather Has Been. Strange has always disappointed me some because I didnt explore how one moves forward after surviving such devastation. The new novel imagines alternatives that are not dystopic and not futuristic. The possibilities are unusual, yet viable, and, I hope, soul-sustaining.  ()Yn|      . 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